Mailing Lists

[Telfie]

It may just be me, but I find the mailing list system very unfriendly. I have finally figured out how to approve emails when the system is moderated. However, now that I have that issue resolved, I find that when the forum is moderated, it will not allow the posting of attachments.

Now there may well be a settings that I need to flick, but for the life of me I can't figure it out.

So, the reason for my post ... a better mail list system that has complete instructions based on the user interface that is provided with DA.

Alternatively, a useful set of instructions based around the forms that are used by DA to set the mail lists up and explanations of the fields and what they do ie ...

what is Munge domain
what is precedence
what is taboo headers, body
what is message fronter

The instructions at majordomo do not seem to tell you this information.

[DirectAdmin Support]

Hello,

I agree that Majordomo is a bit cryptic. I myself am not fully aquainted with all the configuration options there (partly because as you mentioned, even the official documentation is sparse)

John

[nobaloney]

Perhaps I can be a bit of help in this discussion; I've been using Majordomo for somewhere around ten years.

Two old O'Reilly books that covered Majordomo and alternatives well are "Managing Internet Information Services" and "Managing Mailing Lists". (Of course these are old books; they were written about the same time as the O'Reilly book on high speed access, the one titled "Getting Connected: The Internet at 56k and Up" :D .)

The reason you can't readily handle attachments with moderated lists is more to do with your MUA software than Majordomo or the underlying Exim. For example, KMail has a resend command that maintains all the structure of the resent email, so it might work.

I haven't tried it because I don't believe in sending attachments through mailing lists.

There are several reasons, the most important two being (in no particular order):

* Attachments don't work for people who want to subscribe the digest version of your list.

* Sending Attachments to a list wastes an awful lot of bandwidth, an awful lot of destination storage space, and an awful lot of time for people who use low-speed connectivity as well, as everyone gets copy of the attachment whether they need it or not. A better use of bandwidth would be to publish a link in the post so everyone who needs the attachment can just click and get it.

If you're using a mailing list specifically to distribute attachments, then majordomo probably isn't the way to go (actually, both netiquette and virus protection would indicate neither mailing lists nor email in general aren't the way to go) though they certainly are convenient.

Have you subscribed to the majordomo-users mailing list:

http://www.greatcircle.com/lists/

Though I haven't tried it, you might be able to install mailman on your DA powered system.

But I don't think you'll find much support for sending attachments; most Internet professionals recommend using some other method for sending files than as attachments to mailing lists.

Jeff

[nobaloney]

Originally posted by DirectAdmin Support
I agree that Majordomo is a bit cryptic. I myself am not fully aquainted with all the configuration options there (partly because as you mentioned, even the official documentation is sparse)

John, I'd be happy to help you with anything majordomo-related. I've been a contributor to majordomo-users for many years, and I can help you with adding digests, archives, and additional web-based control.

Jeff

[Eagle1]

Jeff,
Would you have some time to give us instructions on how we can install MajorCool alongside DA?
I have tried, but am unsuccessful.

Thanks, Eddie

[nobaloney]

You've got me, Eddie.

I've never installed MajorCool anywhere.

But yes, I will, if you can wait a few days.

I'll try the install on my testbed DA system, and after I have it figured out I'll post what worked for me.

My main testbed system is RHL 7.3/DA.

What are you running DA on?

Please write me via email; I have a great "tickler" system for email, but nothing at all to keep track of when to look at various posts.

And I don't want this to end up forgotten.

Thanks.

Jeff

[twv]

It would be great if it were possible to bulk subscribe members of a mailing list. Adding them one at a time gets old real fast.

[nobaloney]

You can.

Your list is in a file named:

/etc/virtual/example.com/majordomo/lists/listname

where "example.com" is the name of the domain and listname is the name of the mailing list.

it's a straight ascii file, and you can add or subtract email addresses manually.

You don't have to restart anything; the list will just work properly the next time anyone sends an email to it.

Note that you must remember this is an ascii list and if you edit it on your local machine you must upload it again using ascii, and also make sure the permissions don't change.

Note also that majordomo doesn't send any introductory emails to anyone you add manually; you'd have to do that yourself.

Jeff

[twv]

Should have mentioned that I'm a reseller & can't change files in the /etc directory.

[nobaloney]

Then you've got two options...

First is to get your hosting company to add them for you.

The other would be to send an email to majordomo with multiple subscribe requests:

For example, send an email to listname-request@example.com

The subject can say anything; it doesn't matter.

The body lines should be:

subscribe user1@example.com
subscribe user2@example.com

and so forth.

This should work. This way majordomo will send out the original emails it sends to all new subscribers, and if the lists are set to double-opt-in, it will also send them the subscription inquiry.

Jeff

Jeff

[twv]

Originally posted by jlasman
T...send an email to majordomo with multiple subscribe requests


Hey, thanks, I didn't know you could do that. You just have to send one email, right? (Not one per subscriber.)

[ProWebUK]

as Jeff stated, one email with multiple lines:



subscribe user1@example.com
subscribe user2@example.com


It reads commands 1 line at a time.... and you should be able to run as many commands as you wish though 1 email (although not certain with that)

Chris

[twv]

Originally posted by ProWebUK
as Jeff stated, one email with multiple lines

OK, thanks. I'll try it.

[sbchasin]

Originally posted by jlasman
The other would be to send an email to majordomo with multiple subscribe requests:

For example, send an email to listname-request@example.com

The subject can say anything; it doesn't matter.

The body lines should be:

subscribe user1@example.com
subscribe user2@example.com

and so forth.

This should work. This way majordomo will send out the original emails it sends to all new subscribers, and if the lists are set to double-opt-in, it will also send them the subscription inquiry.

Jeff

Jeff

I tried this and got 72 emails to approve the subscriptions since they came from the administrator email and not the email addresses that subscribed. Any way to shut that part off?

Also, is there any way to change the email address of the list owner? I could not easily find a way to do that.

Thanks

Steve

[DirectAdmin Support]

Hello,

I think you should be able to set "Moderated" to "no" in the list setup. Also, you could change list owner by changing the following files:

/etc/virtual/domain.com/majordomo/list.aliases
/etc/virtual/domain.com/majordomo/private.aliases

John

[sbchasin]

Originally posted by DirectAdmin Support
Hello,

I think you should be able to set "Moderated" to "no" in the list setup. Also, you could change list owner by changing the following files:

/etc/virtual/domain.com/majordomo/list.aliases
/etc/virtual/domain.com/majordomo/private.aliases

John

Unfortuantely, as a reseller, I don't have access to /etc. I only have access to my domains. :(

Also, the list is set as unmoderated, but when you have email address "a" (the list owner) subscribe email addresses "b-zz", via email command, the list owner gets a single email for each email address that was subscribed in order for the owner to approve each subscription.

Thanks

Steve

[nobaloney]

Majordomo is not the most advanced list software out there.

Perhaps you should notify your hosting company and ask them to add the addresses for you.

We do that for our customers using Majordomo; perhaps your provider will as well.

Jeff

[D9R]

Is there any problem with defining addresses with this format:
name@domain.com (firstname lastname)

Or, is it better to not include the first and last name:
name@domain.com

[D9R]

Originally posted by sbchasin
Also, is there any way to change the email address of the list owner? I could not easily find a way to do that.

What is the email address of the list owner? I don't see where/how that's set initially.

[nobaloney]

Originally posted by D9R
Is there any problem with defining addresses with this format:

name@domain.com (firstname lastname)

Or, is it better to not include the first and last name:

name@domain.com
Majordomo itself doesn't care, but the method you use to add email addresses may.

These are all valid address forms for Majordomo:

John Smith <johnsmith@example.com>
johnsmith@example.com
johnsmith@example.com (John Smith)
"John Smith" <johnsmith@example.com>

but the last example in the list is NOT acceptable to the DirectAdmin screen for adding addresses.

Full documentation for majordomo can be found at:

http://www.greatcircle.com/majordomo/

Jeff

[nobaloney]

Originally posted by D9R
What is the email address of the list owner? I don't see where/how that's set initially.
The list owner is defined initially as "owner-list@example.com" where "list" is the name of the list.
Internally, owner-list is also aliased to list-owner; there's an interesting discussion of the history behind this discussed in the FAQ on the majordomo site (see my previous post to this thread).

both owner-list and list-owner are initially set to the user who owns the site, so if you're not reading email for the username you need to set up a forward for it to send it somewhere you will read it.

The only place list-owner and owner-list can be aliased to someone besides the site user is in the majordomo list.aliases file for the domain.

However that file is owned by majordom:mail, and is only readable by majordomo, so only someone with root access will be able to modify it.

Perhaps the DA team can create an easy way to change the list owner, but unless they do, you're stuck asking your reseller, who may need to ask the system owner. Some resellers and/or system owners may not be willing to do it for you.

Many changes are easier, though, and can be made through modification of the list's config file.

When you install a majordomo list, you're supposed to send a copy of list-owner-info (a majordomo file) to the list owner. DA doesn't do that. Until the DA team can get around to adding that to the panel, perhaps you'll want to read the list-owner info file at:

http://www.pitt.edu/~postman/lists/Doc/list-owner-info.html

or email me and ask me to send you a text-only version if you'd rather have that.

Note that either the one at the URL above, or the one from me, will be generic, and will not apply specifically to your list, so you'll have to use quite a bit of common sense in reading it.

And there will be things you can't do, considering how the DA control panel implements majordomo, and the limitations of the majordomo install itself.

But it's a good start. And it explains how to get a copy of the list config file and make changes to it.

Unfortunately DA hasn't seen fit to include the extremely helpful comments in the list.config file that majordomo usually includes. You can add the comments automatically, using the config and writeconfig commands explained in list-owner-info.

While majordomo is designed to be robust and fairly forgiving (for example, it won't install a new configuration file with errors, but will write you back and point out the error), you should always experiment with a list you set up just for the purpose, and NOT a live list, until you're sure you know what you're doing.

Looking at the DA majordomo directories, it appears as if majordomo IS set up for archives, but I haven't tested the functionality yet, so I leave that as an exercise for the reader.

I sure hope this post helps someone :) .

Jeff

[D9R]

Thanks, Jeff, for that thorough answer and for the link to the documentation.

The reason I asked is because I plan to set up a list using this format:

johnsmith@example.com (John Smith)

and I'm wondering if John Smith would then be able to unsuscribe if his email program identifies him as simply 'johnsmith@example.com'.

[nobaloney]

I'm not sure, and for that reason I've always just used the email address in the list.

You can try it of course, by setting up yourself, and then trying to delete yourself.

Jeff

[twv]

Originally posted by jlasman
I sure hope this post helps someone :) .


Yes, very helpful. Thanks!

[cooperti]

Jeff,

I'm not sure if I fully understand how to create an alias to the owner-list@mydomain.com account.

If I try to create a forwarder using owner-list, DirectAdmin tells me "there is already a mailing list alias with that name." Am I doing this backwards? Which address in the forwarder be set to owner-list -- "forwarder name" or "destination"?

What's puzzling to me is that the corresponding owner-list e-mail address doesn't appear anywhere in the DirectAdmin utility. What is the password for the owner-list account? I try using the admin password for the mailing list, but that doesn't work.

Finally, once I get the forwarder configured properly, what settings to I need to make in order to restrict the ability to post to the alias above? I would think that the alias would go in the RESTRICT POSTS field. Are there any other options that need to be configured?

Thanks for any help you can provide!

[nobaloney]

Tim,

We no longer use majordomo ourselves (I ran a fairly large commercial list business for a few years, but that business has wound itself down as more and more people use forums such as this one), and I've never heard from anyone using it on DA, so perhaps my clients don't use it either.

Nevertheless I'll do some checking and let you know what I find.

Please add to this thread in a day or two if you don't hear from me here, just to remind me.

Thanks.

Jeff

[cooperti]

Thanks for any help you can provide.

I'm not totally dead in the water. My list is working fine. It's just that it seems that ANYONE on the list can post to the list and I'm trying to clamp it down.

The list is ony being used to notify subscribers of important news and upcoming events. It's not likely that any of the subscribers would ever attempt to post any messages.

However, I would like to make sure this doesn't happen!

We used MajorDomo before on another web server for the same purpose. It worked fine, so I know it's possible to do what I'm trying to do. It seems that the version of Major Domo running on the DA server is different than the one we were using.

Again, many thanks for your help.

[nobaloney]

Originally posted by cooperti
I'm not totally dead in the water. My list is working fine. It's just that it seems that ANYONE on the list can post to the list and I'm trying to clamp it down.
Majordomo doesn't know anything about making a list an announcement list rather than a discussion list.

The way we've always done it in the past was by moderating the list (you can do that through instructions I've posted here before; it doesn't require any changes to the list-owner) and then just not approving any posts from anyone.

The list is ony being used to notify subscribers of important news and upcoming events. It's not likely that any of the subscribers would ever attempt to post any messages.
You can't count on that; I've seen it happen over and over again on announcement lists I've subscribed to.

However, I would like to make sure this doesn't happen!
Just set the list as moderated.

We used MajorDomo before on another web server for the same purpose. It worked fine, so I know it's possible to do what I'm trying to do. It seems that the version of Major Domo running on the DA server is different than the one we were using.
DA uses majordomo 1.5x; there is a majordomo 2, but I don't know any list services operator that uses it; it's bloated and slower.

Jeff

[S2S-Robert]

Might be a stupid question, but why not use mailman if documentation is that sparse for majordomo? That one comes with webbased administration and is very user friendly.

It might require some reading to implement it in DA, but on the other hand, adding the webbased administration yourself to majordomo is also a lot of work.

[cooperti]

Robert,

Don't worry about stupid questions. I'm standing on one leg here. My knowledge of server based applications is severly lacking.

I don't know much about MailMan. The reason I'm using MajorDomo is that my hosting provider uses the application. I had it all figured out until they "upgraded" me to a different server. :mad:

As far as I know, my hosting provider doesn't provide other server mail list apps.

Is MM difficult to install on the server side? Where can I get more info?

[nobaloney]

There's a lot of information available for Majordomo. It's true that Majordomo is a bit antiquated, and I have no idea why the DA staff decided to implement it.

If you want to implement Mailman, go ahead :) .

Jeff

[S2S-Robert]

Well that's why it's in feature requests and not in 3rd party support ;)

I'd like DA to implement it :D

[nobaloney]

I've considered implmenting it for DirectAdmin myself; if I do I can pass on most of the work to the fine folk at DA and then they can add the inteface.

Mark, Chris? Are you interested in it?

Jeff

[jjma]

Hi

I would also be interested in seeing Mailman installed on the DA interface but one question I have is how do the bandwidth module work with things like mailing lists?

Thanks

Jjma

[D9R]

1

Originally posted by cooperti
I'm not sure if I fully understand how to create an alias to the owner-list@mydomain.com account.

If I try to create a forwarder using owner-list, DirectAdmin tells me "there is already a mailing list alias with that name." Am I doing this backwards? Which address in the forwarder be set to owner-list -- "forwarder name" or "destination"?

What's puzzling to me is that the corresponding owner-list e-mail address doesn't appear anywhere in the DirectAdmin utility. What is the password for the owner-list account? I try using the admin password for the mailing list, but that doesn't work.


Jlasman gave the answer:

Originally posted by jlasman
both owner-list and list-owner are initially set to the user who owns the site, so if you're not reading email for the username you need to set up a forward for it to send it somewhere you will read it.
The owner of the list is the 'user who owns the site'; the 'user who owns the site' is the name that was used to create the webhosting account -- the primary, main user -- the name of the webhosting account. It's whatever name was used to create the webhosting account. That name creates a default POP3 email account: mainuser@site.com . Either you need to read mail in that POP3 box, or forward it to some place where you do read mail. BTW, that POP3 box is where all the bounced emails go, etc. It's good to keep an eye on the mail that goes there.


2

Originally posted by cooperti
Finally, once I get the forwarder configured properly, what settings to I need to make in order to restrict the ability to post to the alias above? I would think that the alias would go in the RESTRICT POSTS field. Are there any other options that need to be configured?
There's another way besides moderating the list. To restrict the posts, create another mailing list containing emails of authorized senders -- name it something like 'admins'. (make that list as secure as possible, of course.) Then, for the first mailing list, put 'admins' in the field for Restrict Posts -- in other words, for that field you're supposed to put List Names, not emails. And, you can put more than one list name by entering them with a space between each one.

BTW, I've been playing around with mine for a couple months now and it works pretty good. I have one list for discussion among 8 people (it's restricted so only members of the list can post), and another one that's for sending out a newsletter to about 50 people (it's restricted so only I can post).

[cooperti]

The owner of the list is the 'user who owns the site'; the 'user who owns the site' is the name that was used to create the webhosting account -- the primary, main user -- the name of the webhosting account. It's whatever name was used to create the webhosting account.

Now we're getting somewhere!

Are you saying that the owner corresponds to the username used to login to the DirectAdmin control panel for site administration? Or the user that corresponds to the primary POP3 account?

[cooperti]

I think I have it working. :) Your "secondary list" suggestion seems to prevent unauthorized posts. I say "seems to prevent ..." because I don't get a BOUNCE reply when I try to post from an unauthorized e-mail account.

Is this normal? The message just goes off into LA-LA land.

[nobaloney]

It should be going to the list-moderator for approval.

(Yes, even on a non-moderated list you should define a list-moderator; as I've stated before DA should be doing so, making the domain owner the list-owner.)

Jeff

[D9R]

"the owner corresponds to the username used to login to the DirectAdmin control panel for site administration" -- that's it. The owner is the email address for that username: username@yoursite.com -- and that email address gets a POP3 account by default (it does on my sites, anyway).

I haven't figured out how to moderate yet -- that's for another time.


Here's another question:
In my mailing list, in the field for Footer, I put the usual How to Unsubscribe stuff. When I post to the list using Plain-Text mode in my email program, the footer displays. But when I post to the list using HTML mode, the footer doesn't display. Why is that? Is it possible to post to the list using HTML or is it better to stick with plain-text?

[nobaloney]

Majordomo has no idea how to recreate an email message, changing and adding mime parts. Footers will never show up with mime parts, and email messages with html have mime parts.

Also, it's considered rude to use a mailing list for html.

Especially a discussion list, as html seriously breaks both digests and archives.

Jeff

[jjma]

Sorry to keep on this point but does DA include the bandwidth used when sending out a mailing list in it's bandwidth quota?

Thanks

Jjma

[D9R]

Thanks, Jeff. This whole HTML email thing is new to me -- I've always been a fan of plain-text, but recently upgraded to a new system with HTML defaults. So I'm still feeling my way through the maze of modern email.

[cooperti]

I've been using OE 6 to generate online newsletters for my MajorDomo list members.

Works great. There are a couple of little secrets. Let me know if you need any help or advice.

[D9R]

Oh, do tell! Frankly, it is kind of cool to be able to send webpage-like email. I have no idea how it's done, and I certainly don't have free time to do much of it -- can't even keep up with my personal sites. But it's cool nonetheless and it would be handy for promoting my web design business (creating the illusion that I know what I'm doing;-). So reveal your secrets!

[cooperti]

I normally design my newsletters in Dreamweaver, then copy-and-paste the source code into Outlook. Here's my process:

1) Make sure all of your image source references point to Insert remote web server. In other words, the "src=" tags should refrence an http path, rather than standard root folder file paths. (For example, "http://yoursite.com/images/image1.gif." Of course you have to remember to make sure the image files are actually there before you send off the e-mail. This same concept also applies to CSS files if you're using them. Reference them remotely.

2) In OE6, open a blank new message, then make sure SOURCE EDIT is checked on the VIEW menu. This will give you three tabs at the bottom of the window: EDIT, SOURCE & PREVIEW.

3) Paste your HTML into the "SOURCE" tab view. Then use PREVIEW to make sure your remote image links are resolving. (This is cool because it actually gives you a "live" view of your HTML.)

4) Go to the FORMAT menu in your OE message window and UNcheck the SEND PICTURES WITH MESSAGE option. This is important -- your poste may bounce or you images may get messed up if you don't perform this step.

5) Go back to the EDIT tab and do a spell check.

6) Send a test message to yourself and check the received message just to make sure everything looks good.

7) When you're happy with everything, send it off to your MajorDomo list address.

That's it!

[D9R]

Originally posted by D9R
Is there any problem with defining addresses with this format:
name@domain.com (firstname lastname)

Or, is it better to not include the first and last name:
name@domain.com

Originally posted by jlasman
These are all valid address forms for Majordomo:

John Smith <johnsmith@example.com>
johnsmith@example.com
johnsmith@example.com (John Smith)
"John Smith" <johnsmith@example.com>

but the last example in the list is NOT acceptable to the DirectAdmin screen for adding addresses.
I did some testing as you suggested:

1. I subscribed to a list via email -- majordomo took the email address and ignored the 'From' line, and DirectAdmin displays it as:
johnsmith@example.com

2. Then I added emails via the DirectAdmin control panel. DirectAdmin makes the entire thing an email link rather than just the email part, but majordomo appears to handle it fine:
John Smith <johnsmith@example.com>
johnsmith@example.com (John Smith)

3. I tried removing them via email -- it won't work if you have multiple entries with the same email (as in my #2 example) -- in that case use the DA control panel.

4. Back to having one entry per email, I was able to unsubscribe each format via email and it works fine. :) This is great because it means I can create my list with each person's name next to his email -- giving me a way to know who's on the list. If someone subscribes by email the name won't be there, but I can always add it later if I figure out who they are.

[D9R]

Thanks Tim. I'll let you know how it turns out.

[nobaloney]

The most important secret for html email is:

Always have a non-html component with the same text content, so those people who won't ever look at html email will still see something and so your blind readers will still be able to read it using "blind-reader" software.

There are a lot of people like me who won't ever turn on html email because we know that's how most system infections happen. If I get an email with only an html part and no text part, I send it back with a note saying I can't read it.

If I get on a mailing list with only html email, I unsubscribe.

I make no exceptions; all modern email clients that can send html email can also send a plain-text part; it's simply a matter of setting them up properly.

Because I don't read html email, I'll be happy to test your email for you to make sure it's readable, but if you're going to test through me then write me first and have me set up an address for you, as if it comes to my regular addresses and is html without plain text I'd end up just deleting it.

If you've got an announcement-only list, and follow the caveats above, you don't have to worry about html email, because it's not going to end up in digests. But if you've got a discussion list, you'll find soon enough how html breaks discussion lists archives.

Jeff

[D9R]

"There are a lot of people like me who won't ever turn on html email because we know that's how most system infections happen."
--- How so? Reading HTML email is dangerous security-wise? It's different than reading webpages?


I have EarthLink's TotalAccess MailBox email program. It seems to be relatively advanced and I like it, but it has 3 problems as far as I can tell (I might be wrong but I've looked all over and can't find these 3 features):
1- Received email can only be read as HTML. There's no option to read received mail as plain text.
2- Sent email can go as HTML or plain text, but not both. It's one or the other.
3- When sending HTML email, there's no way to insert hand-coded HTML. You can only compose HTML with the wysiwyg editor.


I have Outlook Express-6, and it may have the above 3 features -- I'm not sure.

I figure I should try Mozilla Mail (1.5 or 1.6) because I've heard good things about it, and I'm not "required" to use Outlook. After a quick look around the panel I found each of the above 3 features apparently is there (along with lots of other features that look like they'll be fun to use).

So why am I writing this? Maybe to get a confirmation that Mozilla is a good email program to use. It looks good to me anyway. (I realize this is getting a bit off-topic, but maybe the topic police won't notice ;) )

[nobaloney]

Originally posted by D9R
How so? Reading HTML email is dangerous security-wise? It's different than reading webpages?
If you're going to a webpage, it's usually because you want to go there, or because an html email sent you there without you realizing it.

HTML email can, for example, tell you it's going to paypal.com where you should re-enter your credit card information and your pin number. PayPal never does that but "phishers" do it all the time to steal your identity. If you weren't using HTML you'd see the real address and know it wasn't at the PayPal site.

HTML email can also open up active-X programs and install viruses on your system; until recently that was the number one way that viruses got installed.

HTML email often displays graphics in such a way as to return your identity to the sender (usually a spammer) as part of their server logs.

HTML email takes at least twice as much data-transfer to send and to receive; often three to ten times as much. Email was never designed to carry anything besides plain-text messages.

I have EarthLink's TotalAccess MailBox email program. It seems to be relatively advanced and I like it, but it has 3 problems as far as I can tell (I might be wrong but I've looked all over and can't find these 3 features):
1- Received email can only be read as HTML. There's no option to read received mail as plain text.
2- Sent email can go as HTML or plain text, but not both. It's one or the other.
If you're right, and I have no reason to believe you're wrong, then it's a lousy program; get rid of it. I can't even try it, myself, because I don't allow Windows systems anywhere near the Internet; I use Linux on the 'net.

3- When sending HTML email, there's no way to insert hand-coded HTML. You can only compose HTML with the wysiwyg editor.
If you're right, and again, I have no reason to believe you aren't, then that's ; if you're going to create complex html email then you really need to know what you're doing, and the entry bar should be high. For markets who insist on html email for marketing we recommend "Subscribe Me"; it allows you to create HTML emails and properly creates the mime-parts so they won't break in a client reader.

Have you ever gotten what looked like an html email but didn't open as html, usually from a spammer? That's because they have no idea how to successfully send html email.

I have [b]Outlook Express-6, and it may have the above 3 features -- I'm not sure.
Outlook Express is the most broken email program on the Internet. It's very hard to set up defaults so it's outgoing emails meet what the rest of the world calls "standards". Using it would be a step backwards for anyone. My opinion, anyway.

I figure I should try Mozilla Mail (1.5 or 1.6) because I've heard good things about it, and I'm not "required" to use Outlook. After a quick look around the panel I found each of the above 3 features apparently is there (along with lots of other features that look like they'll be fun to use).
Mozilla Mail is a good package; I don't use it because as lean as it's become, it's still too bloated for my test.

I use KMail. It runs well under X, it can search the bodies of tens of thousands more quickly than any other email program can search one thousand, it allows you to play different wavefiles based on email filtering (we use it so we hear a loud bell when someone sends email to support).

Of course it requires a Linux desktop, but that's a good thing :) .

Jeff

[D9R]

I use KMail. Of course it requires a Linux desktop, but that's a good thing.
Some day I'm planning to install and run Linux and Apache as a test server -- figure it will be a good learning experience. I'm just waiting till I pick up a spare box.

Yesterday I set up Mozilla Mail and I'm very pleased with it. It was easy to learn my way around it and within an hour or so I had 10 POP3 accounts for my domains working and everything was organized very well. Remember that I've never used a real email client before -- 6 days ago I was an AOL user with all of its limitations; since then I've started using EarthLink and DialUpNetworking, Mozilla, Mozilla Mail, POP3 accounts with my domains, etc etc etc. As someone else said: "Welcome to the internet." :) It's as though I've been living in a world of black and white and just discovered color. Who would have thought email could be so exciting?


if you're going to create complex html email then you really need to know what you're doing, and the entry bar should be high. For markets who insist on html email for marketing we recommend "Subscribe Me"; it allows you to create HTML emails and properly creates the mime-parts so they won't break in a client reader.
It sounds like you're saying HTML email is totally different from HTML webpages. I thought I'd just copy the mime-parts from email I've received. It isn't like I need to send HTML email; it just seemed like a fun thing to play with a little bit.

[nobaloney]

Originally posted by D9R
6 days ago I was an AOL user with all of its limitations; since then I've started using EarthLink and DialUpNetworking, Mozilla, Mozilla Mail, POP3 accounts with my domains, etc etc etc. As someone else said: "Welcome to the internet." :) It's as though I've been living in a world of black and white and just discovered color. Who would have thought email could be so exciting?
May I send a copy of your post to a friend who I've been trying to get off AOL for years? I'd love to see him on the real Internet :) .

It sounds like you're saying HTML email is totally different from HTML webpages.
What I'm really trying to say is that html email is a bad idea, that email was never deisgned for html email, that most of viruses and worms that spread on the Internet wouldn't if not for html email, that html email breaks mailing lists and archives, and that html shouldn't be used in email. Now have I made myself clear? :)

I thought I'd just copy the mime-parts from email I've received.
I don't do enough html email to have any idea if that'll work or not. However there are lots of other issues. For example, you have to either include images, etc., in the email or point to them somewhere on the 'net. Lots of people with dialup connections read email offline, so they won't see your pretty pictures if you point to them on the 'net. Lots more won't download from the 'net any references in an HTML email, in an attempt to keep from getting viruses, etc.

So you'll have to learn how to include images in your html email. Which will mean your emails will be over ten times the size they'd be if they were text emails, and waste lots of bandwidth as they traverse the 'net.

It isn't like I need to send HTML email; it just seemed like a fun thing to play with a little bit.
If you don't need to do it, then don't :) .

Jeff

[D9R]

Sure, you can send him a copy of my post. While you're at it you might also like to show him another version that I wrote at HiveMinds.info - http://hiveminds.info/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=35666#35666 .

I've heard for a long time that AOL isn't a "real" ISP. But hearing about it is different from actually experiencing it, and now that I've experienced it first-hand, even I am incredulous that I took so long to switch. Cost was an issue - I was using someone else's AOL account for free. But if I could do it over again I'd sign up for one of those no-frills ISPs that charge about $10/month. Even I could have found another $120/year. Oh well, live and learn.

The thing I really like the most is being able to use my domains for email now. AOL blocks port 22 or port 25, or whatever port it is. And they don't allow you to use their SMTP mail server. The result is there's no way (other than web mail) to send mail from your own domains.

There are tons of other reasons I dislike AOL: they don't allow you to use newsgroups, they don't work on the DirectAdmin control panel, they don't work on certain variations of the phpBB forum, they're wide open for hackers to find your screen name and then send you spam (I even had someone hack into my AOL account once and send spam from it), their proxy caching is mildly annoying, and I hate hearing the grammatically incorrect "You've Got Mail". But the biggest reason I'm happy now is I'm able to use my POP3 accounts. Anyway, as someone said to me once, "don't get me started on AOL." ;)

[D9R]

Oh, another reason --
now I won't have to
hang my head in shame
when giving out my email address.

[nobaloney]

We're glad to have you aboard, Dean.

Now that you won't have an AOL address you'll find that you might be taken to task for html email.

You see we "know" that AOL users don't know better, but we expect more from a real Internet professional :) .

Feel free to send me an email. I'll send back a copy of what it looks like to me, and the size.

And I'll send you back a non-html version you can look at, and see the size difference.

Jeff

[empower]

If you go to the majordomo site you will find no explanation of the config settings anywhere.
Just the comment that the config file is "self documenting"
Which I found really confusing because when you request the config file by sending a message to
mylist-request@mydomain.com
with
config mylist myadminpassword
you get back a list of settings with no explanation of what they do. Not much help really.
It wasn't till I tried the command to rewrite the config file that I realised that direct admin strips out all the comments.
rewriting the config puts them all back in again. You do this by sending a message to
mylist-request@mydomain.com
with
writeconfig mylist myadminpassword
you get back a list of settings with full explanation of what they do. I' would suggest printing this and then using it as a reference when changing the settings in direct admin because each time you use direct admin to set any parameter it strips out the comments again.

[D9R]

When the list is set so that only specific email addresses are allowed to mail to it, what prevents a creative individual from creating a false email account on their email client - pretending to be one of the allowed addresses, and mailing to the list? It seems to me anyone can create a 'pretend' email account that gives them access to mail to the list.

[nobaloney]

Originally posted by D9R
When the list is set so that only specific email addresses are allowed to mail to it, what prevents a creative individual from creating a false email account on their email client - pretending to be one of the allowed addresses, and mailing to the list?
Nothing. Majordomo was written back when the Internet was a much friendlier place.

It seems to me anyone can create a 'pretend' email account that gives them access to mail to the list.
Which is why the only safe way to make sure only certain people can write to the list is to moderate the list.

Jeff

[manny2008]

I will move to DA once it includes Mailman!

[D9R]

Originally posted by jlasman
the only safe way to make sure only certain people can write to the list is to moderate the list. Got it. I missed it the first time around when you posted that earlier, but I saw it today while revisiting the thread. Thanks, I'll definitely moderate my lists.

(And by the way, I despise html email -- I only send in plain-text format these days.)

[D9R]

Originally posted by jlasman
Majordomo itself doesn't care, but the method you use to add email addresses may.

These are all valid address forms for Majordomo:

John Smith <johnsmith@example.com>
johnsmith@example.com
johnsmith@example.com (John Smith)
"John Smith" <johnsmith@example.com>

but the last example in the list is NOT acceptable to the DirectAdmin screen for adding addresses.

Full documentation for majordomo can be found at:
http://www.greatcircle.com/majordomo/

Jeff

What about using special characters -- will they cause any problems? I'm thinking mainly of '/' and '&':

Smith John/Jan <johnsmith@example.com>
Smith John & Jan <johnsmith@example.com>

[nobaloney]

As I already wrote:

Majordomo itself doesn't care, but the method you use to add email addresses may.

The method you use for adding addresses may need to add an escape character (the \ character) before any "special characters" when writing to the majordomo mailing list.

We only add the actual email address; never anything else.

As always, test, test, test.

Jeff

[D9R]

Thanks for that quick reply.

I like to include the person's name along with the email address because then the list is sorted by name, making it easy to look up specific people to find out whether they are subscribed.

I'm using the DirectAdmin control panel, and the '&' sign hasn't caused any problems yet that I'm aware of. I was thinking of switching to using the '/' instead because it's easier to read -- it makes the names more compact. But maybe I should just play it safe and write the names without any characters like this:

Instead of:
Smith John & Jan <johnsmith@example.com>

Maybe this would be better:
Smith JohnJan <johnsmith@example.com>

[nobaloney]

Majordomo is written in Perl. Since I haven't studied the source code in years I have no idea what kind of quoting it uses, so I have no idea if it needs the escape code or not. Finding out could be your job :) .

Jeff

[rldev]

MAilman and dump Majordomo once and for all.

[icepick]

Hey Guys,

I've got a webdesign customer thats moving all their sites from their current provider to me, however their mailing lists have a lot of data and i'm wondering how to do the following:

1./ Import a whole list of email addresses so she doesnt have to input each one.

2./ One of her mailing lists changes every quarter (Tennis club) so she would need to be able to upload the mailing list herself every quarter.

Her current provider supports this and is using the same majordoma, so wonder if anyone knows of a plugin, or how we could get this added to DA?

[icepick]

Hi,

Any chance of moving the files in /etc/virtual/$domain/majordomo/lists/ to the user directory with user permissions so 1 could upload / change the list of users.

i.e.

/home/admin/domains/$domain/mailinglists/$listname

For example, I have a user that needs to update the list every quarter as it's for a tennis club and junior member lists change all the time, same with senior and for the committee so a simple way for updating / changing the list would be great.

Thanks
Barry

[nobaloney]

I haven't tested it but you can probably move the file, and create a link where it is now.

And of course you'd have to give rights to both the majordomo program and your user. You can do this by creating a new group and making them both members of that group, and then making the file owned by that group.

I've neither looked nor tested, so you're on your own.

Jeff

[albatroz]

What will this allow, disallow?

I would like that only one person (me) be capable of posting emails to a list


Originally posted by DirectAdmin Support
Hello,

I think you should be able to set "Moderated" to "no" in the list setup. Also, you could change list owner by changing the following files:

/etc/virtual/domain.com/majordomo/list.aliases
/etc/virtual/domain.com/majordomo/private.aliases

John

[nobaloney]

albatroz,

The easiest way to set up a Majordomo list is to set it up as a moderated list. But then you'll have to properly use the moderator password every time you post, and whenever someone else posts, it'll get sent to you and you can just ignore it.

Have you read the sample list-owner-info (http://www.nobaloney.net/downloads/majordomo/sample-list-owner-info) file here (http://www.nobaloney.net/downloads/majordomo/sample-list-owner-info)?

Jeff

[albatroz]

What I did was follow a tip... posted somewhere in the forums...

Create a new dummy list and include there the name of the people authorized to post in my list. Then restricted the posting capabilities to the email addresses included in that file

[D9R]

Approving moderated lists
First, could someone either explain in simple terms how to approve a moderated list, or post a link to where it's explained well? I've tried and tried doing as the instructions say, but am still missing something.

Mailman vs Majordomo
Second, it sounds like Mailman is "better" than Majordomo. Is that true? Is DirectAdmin going to start having Mailman preinstalled? Or, should I ask my webhost to install it for me? I'm a reseller so I don't think I can install it myself.

[toml]

Originally posted by D9R
Approving moderated lists
First, could someone either explain in simple terms how to approve a moderated list, or post a link to where it's explained well? I've tried and tried doing as the instructions say, but am still missing something.

It can get a bit tricky. There are a couple of ways to approve a message. one is to add an Approved: header with the majordomo password, another is to add Approved: with the password as the first line and send the message back to the list. There is another way, but it requires shell access, and other settings.


Mailman vs Majordomo
Second, it sounds like Mailman is "better" than Majordomo. Is that true? Is DirectAdmin going to start having Mailman preinstalled? Or, should I ask my webhost to install it for me? I'm a reseller so I don't think I can install it myself.
They take different approaches, to do similar things. If you like Mailman, contact your admin and have them install it, there is nothing stopping you from doing that.